A conversation with the architect, Jun Aoki

Interview with Architect Jun Aoki, 2010, Tokyo Japan

Robert Hutchison:
While I have interviewed many architects and artists now, this was one of the hardest interviews to prepare for, because I think your architecture is very difficult to talk about. I realized that as I looked at your architecture and your book, I found it hard come up with specific questions. So I have a lot of thoughts in my head, but nothing that is very clear. So I thought maybe we would just start talking, and see what happens?

Jun Aoki:
Ok!

RH
Let’s start off by talking about the idea of ‘genetic rule overdrive’, which you allude to in your essay ‘Concerning Ornament or Dress’ in your monograph Jun Aoki: Complete Works. Could you explain what you mean by ‘genetic rule overdrive’?

JA
I wondered about the law of intention, or the concept of the architect or artist. Because, of course, when I create something, I need some idea, or concept or intention, otherwise I can do nothing. But this intention, or this wish, is not the purpose of the creation. It is just a kind of trigger to create something. People think that all architecture should be created from some intention. But for me, while intention can be the starting point of creation, it is just a direction for the first attack, the first step towards creation. When this intention is very strong to develop the idea, we can use this concept as a more formalistic way. When I wrote this text, I alluded to Frank Gehry’s architecture. He has, I think, an intention, but I believe he does not want this intention to be a direct translation to the real architecture. And so he needs some external rules to create architecture. To create architecture like a fish, this is just a geometric exercise, it is not his inner intention, just an outer rule.

RH
So do you mean when we look at the fish, we don’t understand what his intentions are, that it does not matter?

JA
Correct, it doesn’t matter. I don’t care why he likes fish. When he creates the idea, or rule, of elements like a fish, it can create some architecture, from detail to the whole shape. It is very systematic, because the small part and the big part have the same rule. Likewise, when I wrote this text, I needed some outer rule, not from inner intention, but an outer rule. And I wished to be driven from this rule. And out of this came the word ‘overdrive’.

RH
So when you talk about rules, what do you mean?

JA
Rules mean some manipulation … (struggles with translation)
Well, this situation is very difficult even in Japanese! So it is the same for me speaking in English or Japanese. (Pause) A rule is some common direction with my staff and client. For example, when I designed the Aomori Museum of Art, the idea was to use two elements. One was the earth; the trench, a kind of landscape; the surface of the earth goes up and down. The other was a building that is placed over these trenches; the bottom of the surface of this building was also going up and down. With these combinations of two surfaces, interstices were created. That’s a rule, because these are not just geometrical manipulations, or ecological concepts. Ecological concepts can be understood by so many realizations. For example, if you use the solar panel, it is ecological, but you can also use deep eaves, which is also ecological. So when I say ecological, it is too vast of a word. When I say a rule, it is more precise, more detailed.

RH
So for the Aomori Museum, you’re saying that one of the guiding rules was simply the notion of the trenches and the building above, resulting in a space that is created in between it. That is the guiding rule that you and your client and your staff came to understand together?

JA
Yes.

RH
So why could I not say that that was your intention?

JA
Because intention is another thing. My intention when I designed the museum was to create a very good museum. Of course, what is a good museum is a question in its own right. What I intended was a museum that is good for an artist, not necessarily for a curator. But what is good for an artist? I believe it is a space that gives some feeling of freedom for an artist. It is a space that does not anticipate the artist’s wish. In this way the artist can do anything in this space. And then this space can be defined with the realization of the artist’s work. The White Cube Gallery in the museum, this gallery is a good space for artists, but even this gallery anticipates the artist’s creation. Some artists like very much the White Cube Gallery because they can imagine the space, and can imagine the relationship between the art work and the space. In this way I don’t think that the White Cube provides freedom for the artist; I wanted to make a museum even more free for artists. But this freedom does not mean a universal space. For example, for site specific art, the floor is the earth; it is not free; it gives some limitation of creation to an artist because it is not the white gallery, and the artist has to use this condition of earth. Of course people can cover this condition, but it has one limitation, one condition. (SEYAKU) It has some obligation to the artist.

RH
So in other words, it requires the artist to react. It is not neutral.

JA
Yes, it is not neutral. It requires some reaction from the artist. But this is not to force the artist’s imagination, but rather to trigger the start of a creation. In this design of the museum, my intention is to create this kind of space, rather than the White Cube Gallery. This is the intention of the museum.

RH
And so you have mentioned that it is not important for you for those intentions to be understood in the building once it is finished. But is it important for you that those intentions be achieved?

JA
Yes, I think so. But this intention does not need to be understood, that is ok. These intentions must be realized in the real space though, so that artists feel freedom in the museum. Then the museum will succeed. If not, then it will not succeed. But no, it is not important to be understood.

RH
So I am wondering how intuition plays a part in your process? It seems like you rely on your intuition a certain amount in the design process. Does intuition play a part with your rules, the ruleset? Does intuition guide the rules?

JA
Well, of course when I design, I need intuition. Let me explain the process of the design for the Aomori Museum. When I first started thinking about the project, I analysed several museums. For example, in London, the Tate Modern is a conversion of an electric plant. In France there is a contemporary museum that is a conversion from a wine cellar. In New York, the Beacon Dia Center is a conversion of the Nabisco Factory. All of these museums were conversions from some other function. Sometimes these conversions are better than a museum that an architect could design. This became my first question. When an architect designs a museum, the architect must think about what is the ideal gallery for an artist? But this means that the architect has to anticipate the artist’s creation or reaction to the space. I think that artists feel uncomfortable about this anticipation by the architect. In a renovation, such as the Tate, in this huge space there is a freedom given to the artist, because the space does not anticipate a specific artwork that needs to be done there. But this space is not neutral because it is so huge. It has its own specific character, because this space is designed for the special purpose to hold turbines to generate electricity. So this space is designed with a specific intention, or rule, to house electricity machinery. But after the conversion, the logic of this rule has disappeared. People cannot feel this logic anymore. Why is this space so huge? There is no meaning, it is just a space. Other people and artists can feel comfortable with this space for creation. And so one idea for how to design a good museum was for me to first design an electric plant. (Laughter)

Aomori Art Museum

RH
So you design for a different program, and then convert it!

JA
Yes, then I convert during design! Yes, this is one solution. But of course, this is silly.

RH
I don’t know, it doesn’t sound too silly to me.

JA
Ha! Nonetheless, this is something very difficult to pursue with a client. I needed a very strong rule to create a space like the turbine hall. But this is not derived from some idea about what is a good museum. This is another idea that is ok. Any idea is ok! And so this combination of trenches and building surface is a very abstract idea for a museum; it is not a relationship with the museum at all, but it can be a very similar rule to the turbine hall. And so this is just an idea to push, or develop the design. And then if we design only with this rule, we can have a lot of ideas about the space; we can choose which space is good and which is not. And so this has no anticipation for creation, rather it is related to the intention to design a good museum, it is related at the end. And we can analyse many things about a good design. For example, if every space is too similar in proportion or size, then it is a bit boring for the artist. In the PS1 in New York, a conversion from a primary school, while the spaces are very good because there is no anticipation for creation, the spaces (old classrooms) are very similar in size, so it also poses the artists with limitations. But if you have a space like a gymnasium, it is a larger space, and combined with the smaller spaces, then you have variations in space, and there is a larger range for creation. For the Aomori Museum, I manipulated the combination of spaces; I wanted a lot of variation of proportion, and variation in size - if we have a very large space, then we need to balance it with a more small space. This is derived from this observation.

RH
So now whenever I go into the Aomori Museum again and I go into the very large space, then I will see turbines!

JA
Ha ha, yes!

RH
Before I visited the Aomori Museum I had not read anything about it - I did not read what your intentions were, and I did not know about your ‘rules’. But when I went there what was very obvious to me was the ground, and the architecture above, so I think it is interesting to me to hear about these notions of intentions and rules. To me the rule that you used was very clear.

Let’s change the topic to education. I understand that you teach at Kobe Design University?

JA
Yes, but only two days of the week. My studio, my atelier, is very small, about 10 staff. Every staff can stay here only 4 years. So every staff that enters in after graduation from university, and then they stay here just 4 years.

RH
Is that a rule?

JA
A rule, yes! Also a rule! When I started my own career, I realized that the good staff who I wanted to stay longer wanted to leave after about 4 years, and staff who I did not want to keep working …

RH
Ahh, so 4 years is the perfect length.

JA
Of course, I miss very much when my staff grows up in my studio and then they leave. Every time this happens though I feel happy. And everytime I bring in new people, it is very stimulating to me. But I have to teach them a lot, to draw …

RH
Because most of them are coming in directly from the university …

JA
Yes, so they have no knowledge of how to design a real building. For example, on the Aomori Museum, only 2 to 3 staff worked on the museum, and for all three of them it was their first time designing a building. So I have to stay in my studio a lot of time. This is one reason why I can’t teach much at a university. I suppose my studio itself is a kind of university.

RH
That’s actually a nice analogy. With my own firm, we talk about the importance of teaching people, and expect that in the end they will move on. We don’t have the 4-year rule, but maybe we should start one!

JA
Yes, my staff knows that they can stay only 4 years. They can imagine what 4 years is. So they work very hard, because in these 4 years they want to learn as much as possible from my studio.

RH
I interviewed one of your former ‘students’, Ryuji Nakamura. He spoke very highly of his experience here. Perhaps this discussion about education leads us to a related discussion about ethics. In Kenjiro Hosaka’s text ‘Ethics for Architecture, Architecture for Ethics’ in your book Jun Aoki: Complete Works, he mentions several times the word ‘ethics’ and how that word is important to you. I don’t know if I have a specific question about that, but I guess it made me wonder about how we articulate an architect’s ethical obligations? And are these any different from anyone’s ethical obligations, or perhaps more specifically are they the same or different to other creative professions? Such as an artist, do their ethics differ from an architect’s?

JA
When Hosaka-san mentioned the idea of ethics, it was not the general meaning of ethics, but the more philosophical meaning of ethics. Often words are used to explain architecture, but sometimes these words are simply about persuasion, about a presentation of the building of architecture. I myself don’t want to explain my own architecture, because I believe architecture has to speak by itself. If people don’t feel anything, then the architecture is nothing. I don’t want persuasion by words. This is not just for architecture, but any creation, it must have this kind of ethics. For example, an artist also deals with the same thing, and a musician, can be said in the same way.

RH
A few more questions regarding your projects. When I visited your Louis Vuitton project, at first it struck me as being very different from the Aomori Museum; but after spending time in it I began to see things about it which were very similar.

JA
Yes, there are many differences between them. First, for the design of Louis Vuitton, I could not propose the character of the building, because the character is fixed, it is very obvious. The intention, the goal, was to represent the image of Louis Vuitton.

Louis Vuitton Ometosanto

RH
So  by ‘character’ what you mean is the image, the brand?

JA
Yes, the brand. But for a museum, it is the opposite case; I don’t want to create an image for the museum, because it is important that the museum be a space that can be interpreted in different ways by any artist. But for Louis Vuitton, it is about one single interpretation. For both buildings, while the design directions are very different, the design attitudes are very similar. Both projects were designed at the same time, from 2000 to 2004. I proposed Louis Vuitton as a piling up of the trunks in a random fashion. It is my interpretation of Corbu’s La Tourette. When I visited La Tourette, I felt ‘volume’. In Japanese, we don’t say ‘body’. When we use the term ‘volume’, it has no form, it has no mass. This is a bit difficult to explain. This feeling of the volume the feeling of ‘here and there’. In La Tourette, there are many spatial elements, like spiral staircases, and a small chapel; there are many elements present all over the place. When you arrive at one of these elements, you will find another element, and you will go towards another element, and then you find another one; this is an endless condition, walking around. By this experience, you feel not the shape of the space, but a set of sensations. So when you leave La Tourette, you only feel the sensation of the space. This labyrinth feeling gives you a feeling of the space, which I call the feeling of ‘volume’. When I designed Louis Vuitton, the piling of the trunks was just the rule, not the intention. It can be received by my client because Louis Vuitton makes trunks. But this was not my intention, it was just a persuasion, that’s all. The challenge became how to develop the ‘idea’ of piling of the trunks. I thought the idea could in some way be related to the experience in La Tourette, the idea of ‘here and there’, because you could see the next space, like an endless space. I also used this idea in the Aomori Museum. The Aomori Museum is composed of two types of spaces; one space of interstice between the earth material and the white cubes; and another space inside the white cubes. I wanted these two spaces to have equal strengths, like a checkerboard pattern. If you say the earth is black and the white cube gallery is white, then we have a white and black checkerboard pattern; like a kind of labyrinth. It is the same idea for me in the Louis Vuitton project. The process of design is very similar. I just fixed some rules at first which can be received by a client, while also thinking about the more architectural intentions. They are both similar, like twins.

Louis Vuitton Ometosanto

RH
Yes, it is almost like the strategies are the same, but the techniques are the different. My first reaction when I went into Louis Vuitton was how different it was from your Aomori Museum, because of the very different material palette. But once I got to the top of the building, I began to see a similarity to the Aomori project in a spatial way.

You designed a very interesting bridge a while back, the Mamihara Bridge. I appreciate the design because it has a spatial element to it. Could you tell me about the process that you went through while you were designing it?

Mamihara Bridge

JA
The client, a small town, wanted space for pedestrians. I thought the simple solution was to put some space for pedestrians, a terrace or balcony, but I felt it was not pure, just an addition. The terrace seemed like a superficial ornament.

RH
Just applied.

JA
Yes. I wanted the bridge itself to be a space for traffic, but also a space for pedestrians. But of course, for a simple bridge this can be very difficult. So I proposed a bridge that looks like a pair of lips from the site; it is a very simple idea, a street with an upper and lower part, and they are fused at both ends of the river.  When I presented the scheme to the people of the town, many did not like the idea, because they wanted a more monumental bridge;  they wanted a bridge that would attract a lot of tourists. I did not agree with this idea because tourists will come just once, but they will never come back. So I persuaded them that they need to have a very good space, not for tourists, but for themselves. Anyway, the bridge was completed …

Mamihara Bridge

RH
So obviously you convinced them …

JA
Ahhh, it was 50-50, but I said I have no other ideas! While many of the community members said that they did not like the idea, but I used the idea anyway. Of course, I was very afraid of the people’s reaction after the bridge was completed. During the ceremony of the opening of the bridge, I went there the day before, and in the evening, the people were already using the lower part of the bridge – they were drinking on the bridge! They said to me, “I have only one objection to you, and this is, why didn’t you put an electric outlet here?” They wanted an outlet so that they could play karaoke! I think I was the first architect to be scolded for not including an electric outlet on a bridge.

Mamihara Bridge

RH
That’s hilarious, that’s a great story!

JA
Yes! Everybody in the town likes the bridge very much. I think it was completed in 1994, so it is now 15 to 16 years ago. And this year there was an article about the bridge, because the community likes it very much, and even now they still have parties on the bridge in the summer.

RH
You have done numerous exhibitions and installations: FARM, Fiber, Pharmacy, Ubis. These projects do not seem to have a program per se; they seem to be more like art installations in that way. Are there differences in the way you approach these projects relative to your more architectural projects which have clients and programs?

Ubis

JA
I worked as a kind of artist in the Pharmacy and Ubis projects; Ubis was an installation inside the Museum of Modern Art Tokyo (MOMAT), and so it was understood as an artwork by the museum and visitors. But for me, what I was doing is the same or similar to architecture. At Ubis, I related the installation project to a previous residential project called U, where I based the formal development of the residence on a mobious strip. As you know, a mobious strip has a front and back that can be reversed. The Ubis installation interpreted the idea of the mobious strip at a pure spatial level.  In the MOMAT museum there is a universal space with several columns, and for every exhibition they install temporary walls. But these temporary walls are made to look like very fixed walls. I asked the museum to create an internal space between these temporary walls, an interstitial space, which could be illuminated at much higher levels than the exhibition spaces. While this interstial space functions as a ‘back’ space, it looks and feels like a ‘front’ space. While the project was inspired by the U residence, it is a more simple and experimental application of the idea.

RH
My own thoughts about art and architecture have made me wonder if architecture, by definition, is conservative. Because the profession discourages, in fact I would argue, does not allow failure. Because we have to create buildings that don’t fall on people, or we have to make the building for a certain cost, or they have to function in some way for society. So architecture does not allow us to fail. I have been wondering if the reason that architects do these more art-related projects is to allow, or not to be afraid of, failure. What do you think about this?

JA
Any creation has some limitation. Even if you make a sculpture, you have the limitation of gravity.

RH
So is it about understanding what the limitations are, because they change depending on what one is trying to do?

JA
When I create something, even an artwork, I start from the observation of the existing space, and the first step is how to deal with changing the existing space by very simple, small actions. This is my wish regardless if the project is an artwork or architecture. So with this intention, for me there is not much difference between architecture or art.

RH
You have mentioned that film is important in your work. In what way?

JA
I discuss films often with my staff. We want to create a new space that has not yet been realized. Film provides a lot of images which are not real.

RH
I very much appreciate the filmmaker Hirokazu Koreeda.

JA
‘Nobody Knows’ …

RH
Yes!  I was hoping to interview him also. I think he portrays architecture in a very interesting way.

JA
That is very I interesting, because in my lecture at Kobe Design University on Saturday, I used an image from Koreeda’s ‘Nobody Knows’. Our impression of this film is that it is influenced a lot by the corridor in the building, rather than the inside of the apartment which might at first seem to be the primary space of the film. If you calculate the time of the corridor scenes in this movie, it is very small, yet it gives you a lot of sensation about the whole space of the building. The children don’t want to be found, they want to stay hidden. When they walk through the corridor, they are very afraid to be found; they feel like suspects. In this way I think it is a very powerful part of the film.

Why have you not had a chance to interview him?

RH
I simply have not been able to determine how to contact him. Ironically, I also used a clip from Koreeda’s film ‘After Life’ in my own lecture at Kobe Design University, more because of my interest in light and dark, and the way Koreeda used this theme in his film. I actually took a picture of the clip while it was playing on my computer, and used it in my lecture as an image. So it is funny that you used him as well.

JA
Yes, this is very interesting!!!

RH
Ok. I’m so sorry for the long interview! Arigato gozaimasu.

JA
Dou itashimashite!

Interview by Robert Hutchison conducted on October 5, 2010, at the office of Jun Aoki, Gaienmae, Tokyo.

All images courtesy Jun Aoki.